Sorry Colts

[King87]

Originally Posted by WTE

Sam Wyche. One of my favorites. I loved it when he addressed the Cincy crowd and said "You don't live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati!"

Funny as hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJMa2...eature=related

He's that dude.

He's the best coach we ever had.

[MNPatsFan]

Originally Posted by King87

True, however didn't Peyton's team have an equal amount of turnovers that game?

I don't know and haven't researched that issue because this has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about which was your point that the Steelers beat the Colts in part due to Reggie Wayne dropping a sure TD and my counter point that Peyton would never have won a Super Bowl if Reche Caldwell hadn't dropped a sure TD.

Originally Posted by King87

He threw a single touchdown against the Rams. That was his SB. Ty Law and your defense won that SB.

Ok so he threw a single touchdown against the Ram. Peyton Manning threw a single TD in BOTH of his Super Bowl games, first against the Bears and then against the Saints. If this is a negative for Brady, then it is similarly a negative for Manning, right King.

Originally Posted by King87

The Panthers game he played great, but once again, one of his epic moments was moving the ball down the field like 45 yards down the field and who kicked in the game winner?

I guess I don't see the problem in doing what is necessary under pressure and with time running down to move your team down the field to win the game without taking unnecessary risks or gambles when all you need is a field goal to win the game. Smart sound football in my opinion.

Originally Posted by King87

And yeah his stellar 266 yards and one touchdown was an awesome game. He looked so awesome when his offensive line couldn't shield him perfectly for a game. This time he had to actually drive down the field for a touchdown to not lose the game. Ouch.

Brady may not have won the Super Bowl against the Giants. Brady, however, didn't cost the Patriots the Super Bowl by throwing an interception, let alone a pick six, which is more than Peyton Manning can say.

Originally Posted by King87

Managing the game doesn't mean you run the ball more, it means you're not asked to win the game. For instance, in this SB you saw that the Colts and the Saints were trying to move the ball down the field mainly with passes. Just like your offense did. The difference is that both the saints and the colts were far more aggressive. I.E. more of an onus was put on them.


This is where I point you to his stat line.

I will give you that the Patriots were more conservative in the SB against the Rams, but they were just as aggressive as the Colts and Saints in their SB games against the Panthers, Eagles and Giants. I would even say they were overly aggressive against the Giants because they ran too little and passed too much in that game.

Originally Posted by King87

Nope. He threw the ball. I don't recall absolving him of that throw at all. If I did please show me.

I may have attributed a post or comment to you that was made by someone else. If so, then I apologize.

Originally Posted by King87

No, I don't think that they care. What I do know is that when it comes down to dissecting a career you look at everything. Just going "Brady has more rings so he's better," doesn't cut it.

I agree. I am looking at everything. I just place more importance and emphasis on how the player did in the season that really matters, the post season and Super Bowl. Comparing Brady and Manning there is a HUGE difference that can't merely be ignored. Manning is a stud in the regular season but he is a pedestrian in the playoffs where he is merely .500 (9-9) and has only won one Super Bowl. Brady may not be a stud in the regular season, but he has really shined in the playoffs where he is 12-4 and has won 3 Super Bowls.

Originally Posted by King87

Palmer was a stud. He threw 28 TDs and 13 INTs, 4000 yards, completed 58% of his passes, etc etc etc.

Now he is only above average. Glad to know that Palmer is the measuring stick of a QB's greatness.

Didn't say that Palmer is the measuring stick of QB greatness. I was just using him as an example of the effect a major knee injury and surgery can have on a QB's subsequent play and how long it takes the QB to return, if ever, to his pre-injury form.

[ursamajor]

Peyton kept his eyes on that side of the field from the snap. It can be a good thing to telegraph like that intentionally, when the corners are playing off, if you pump fake. And the corners were playing off. Peyton should have realized that he had a great opportunity to set up Porter with the pump fake. Porter would have made his move to jump the route, and Wayne would have come free. It probably would have caused Sharper to take a few steps up as well. It could have been a TD play have Peyton pump faked.

I bet it is haunting Peyton.

[King87]

Originally Posted by MNPatsFan

I don't know and haven't researched that issue because this has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about which was your point that the Steelers beat the Colts in part due to Reggie Wayne dropping a sure TD and my counter point that Peyton would never have won a Super Bowl if Reche Caldwell hadn't dropped a sure TD.

My point is that Manning typically has more to overcome than Brady does. I didn't even phrase my statement correctly.

Ok so he threw a single touchdown against the Ram. Peyton Manning threw a single TD in BOTH of his Super Bowl games, first against the Bears and then against the Saints. If this is a negative for Brady, then it is similarly a negative for Manning, right King.

Yes.

I guess I don't see the problem in doing what is necessary under pressure and with time running down to move your team down the field to win the game without taking unnecessary risks or gambles when all you need is a field goal to win the game. Smart sound football in my opinion.

That's fine, however people make it sound like Brady is this masterful magician at the end of playoff games. The reality of it is that his legend is...greatly overstated.

Brady may not have won the Super Bowl against the Giants. Brady, however, didn't cost the Patriots the Super Bowl by throwing an interception, let alone a pick six, which is more than Peyton Manning can say.

Neither did Peyton. Manning needed two touchdowns and had enough time and timeouts. He needed an onside kick. It happened once in that game already. If you want someone to blame for the Colts' losing effort, there's a whole lot of guys on their defense to look at.

I will give you that the Patriots were more conservative in the SB against the Rams, but they were just as aggressive as the Colts and Saints in their SB games against the Panthers, Eagles and Giants. I would even say they were overly aggressive against the Giants because they ran too little and passed too much in that game.

They were real conservative for a reason. In the other two SBs that you won I don't think you were as aggressive as either team. But, against the Giants you guys didn't run much all year. Just like Manning this year...

I may have attributed a post or comment to you that was made by someone else. If so, then I apologize.

No problem. It gets hard to remember every last detail.

I agree. I am looking at everything. I just place more importance and emphasis on how the player did in the season that really matters, the post season and Super Bowl. Comparing Brady and Manning there is a HUGE difference that can't merely be ignored. Manning is a stud in the regular season but he is a pedestrian in the playoffs where he is merely .500 (9-9) and has only won one Super Bowl. Brady may not be a stud in the regular season, but he has really shined in the playoffs where he is 12-4 and has won 3 Super Bowls.

Funny how we see it differently. To me Brady was a guy who was asked to do a whole lot less than Manning. Over time his importance to his team grew, up his first SB performance to me was, greatly overrated and only average. He got better, a lot better, over time, but in regards to Manning he never had to do what Manning had to. Manning had to win every game. His defense rarely won games if ever, in fact they were usually amongst the worst in the NFL. But the second Brady was ever put in the position that Manning was his entire career he isn't the same guy.

If I put Peyton Manning on the Patriots and Brady on the Colts I expect that the Colts would still wind up being the losers in regards to their head to head competition. But, what happened the last time the two teams played in the playoffs? What happened this year with the Pats in the playoffs? To me it's clear that the Patriot dynasty is officially dead. The Patriots aren't positioned to be strong playoff contenders and Brady was so 'valuable' to his team that Matt Cassel took them to an 11-5 year.

How can I take that over a guy who is going to have all the passing records and proved that he is capable of winning a Super Bowl?

There's this huge knock on Manning that he sucks at the playoffs, but he's improving that record. By the time his career is over his playoff record will be pretty damn good. I mean two years ago it was abysmal right? Now he's one game under 500. right?

Didn't say that Palmer is the measuring stick of QB greatness. I was just using him as an example of the effect a major knee injury and surgery can have on a QB's subsequent play and how long it takes the QB to return, if ever, to his pre-injury form.

That's fine.

[MNPatsFan]

Originally Posted by King87

Neither did Peyton. Manning needed two touchdowns and had enough time and timeouts. He needed an onside kick. It happened once in that game already. If you want someone to blame for the Colts' losing effort, there's a whole lot of guys on their defense to look at.

Well they ONLY needed ONE touchdown before Manning threw the interception because New Orleans was leading 24-17 at that time. Manning, however, did need TWO touchdowns AFTER he threw the pick six.

You can sugar coat it or spin it anyway you want, but Manning cost the Colts the Super Bowl when he threw the pick six doubling their deficit from 7 points to 14 points at 31-17 with only 3:12 left in the fourth quarter.

Regardless of our differences of opinion King, I enjoy debating you because your arguments make me think, formulate good counter arguments, and provide factual basis for my counter arguments and opinions.

Here is to you King!

[King87]

Originally Posted by MNPatsFan

Well they ONLY needed ONE touchdown before Manning threw the interception because New Orleans was leading 24-17 at that time. Manning, however, did need TWO touchdowns AFTER he threw the pick six.

You can sugar coat it or spin it anyway you want, but Manning cost the Colts the Super Bowl when he threw the pick six doubling their deficit from 7 points to 14 points at 31-17 with only 3:12 left in the fourth quarter.

Regardless of our differences of opinion King, I enjoy debating you because your arguments make me think, formulate good counter arguments, and provide factual basis for my counter arguments and opinions.

Here is to you King!

They were also only down a touchdown because of Manning. I'm not spinning anything my friend.

I enjoy the debates with you as well. It's never personal and always fun.

[CrazyHorse]

If Adam Viniateri = Scott Norwood then how many rings does Brady have?

[MNPatsFan]

Originally Posted by CrazyHorse

If Adam Viniateri = Scott Norwood then how many rings does Brady have?

Why he would have three because he would have driven the Patriots deep enough that Scott Norwood couldn't and wouldn't have missed!

I can play the same game CrazyHorse. If TD = Ki-Jana Carter then how many Super Bowl rings would Elway have? Under the two scenarios provided, Brady would have at least one more ring than Elway and probably three.

[Northman]

Originally Posted by CrazyHorse

If Adam Viniateri = Scott Norwood then how many rings does Brady have?

Most moronic comment ever. If you dont think that Brady was a huge part of those SB wins your insane. I too agree that Manning is better overall but to simply downplay Brady because of ignorance is well.....ignorant.

[King87]

Why did we have to say the name Ki-Jana Carter?

Why?

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by King87

Why did we have to say the name Ki-Jana Carter?

Why?

[King87]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Akili Smith, Ki-Jana Carter, David Klinger, Dan Wilkinson and Peter Warrick.

That was a bad, bad decade.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by King87

Akili Smith, Ki-Jana Carter, David Klinger, Dan Wilkinson and Peter Warrick.

That was a bad, bad decade.

Well, I'm sure Mike Brown did his very best. The effort must count for something

[King87]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Well, I'm sure Mike Brown did his very best. The effort must count for something

Mike Brown, spends money like a conservative but has the accountability of a....